PostHeaderIcon Two Shooters!

Uh oh… We have been musing over the mysterious Vegas massacre a bit hereabouts; but I have deliberately avoided chasing the various conspiracy theories, involving multiple shooters. I had assumed that all of the reports of more than one gunman were the result of confusing echos. That just ended:

This sure strikes me as sound science (pun intended) and common sense. Now, what exactly are they hiding, and why? â—„Daveâ–º

19 Responses to “Two Shooters!”

  • This whole case is bizarre to say the least. Thanks for the post Dave I will re-post to help circulate.

  • Chris says:

    Not saying I know more than this guy and his analysis isn’t correct BUT he makes some assumptions that I haven’t heard. All we know is that there were several types and calibers of weapons present as well as a large amount of ammo. I do know that different brands and loads of even the same caliber ammunition have different velocities out of the same weapon. For this to be accurate he has to assume he knows the exact weapon/ caliber/and load of each round fired. That may be something the FBI knows, but all I’ve seen on the news is “AR style weapon with a bump stock. Well AR’s come in many calibers with many types of ammo that will work in them. If you want to be amazed check this out.

    The amount of ammo he had collected makes it doubtful that it was all exactly the same brand type or even caliber which is the assumption he makes. Maybe he knows more than I have heard. I do however give him credit for being curious enough to take the time but I’m not going to bank on his theory.

    • Interesting, Chris. I had no idea the AR-15 had been modified to chamber so many different cartridges. Obviously, he was working with the standard 223 round, which I am sure most, if not all, of the subject AR’s used. It is the ammo that one finds packaged in thousand round quantities, and for which large capacity magazines are readily available. The only other rifle that it makes sense that he might have had, would have been SKS’s and/or AK-47’s. I have no idea what the difference in the timing would have been with their 30 cal ammo; but I doubt it would have been enough to sound like it was only half the distance.

      Did you see/hear the video from the Uber taxi that was at the Mandalay at the time? It truly sounded like a firefight, with some sustained firing from some distance away, soon followed by full auto bursts that sounded like they were right outside the car. I assumed it was an echo effect. Now, I am not so sure. I’d like to put the two distinct sounds on an oscilloscope, to measure the delay between them. â—„Daveâ–º

      • Chris says:

        Oh and looking strictly at 223 rounds their velocities can range from 2500 ft/s to 4000 ft./s although most range in the 3000 to 3500 area. Still there’s a possible difference there as well.

  • Chris says:

    The velocity range of just different .22 LR’s I pulled from a link on the above link. It certainly can cut the time in half.

    A wide variety of rimfire ammunition is available commercially, and the available ammunition varies widely both in price and performance. Bullet weights among commercially available ammunition range from 20 to 60 grains (1.3 to 3.9 g), and velocities vary from 575 to 1,750 ft/s (175 to 533 m/s).

    .22 magnum can reach 2000 ft/s

    Not saying he’s wrong. Just that it’s not the only explanation.

    I tell you what this did do. It dispels the thinking that you need large caliber ammunition to be lethal. Of course with the number of wounded larger caliber would have presented higher mortality. I cringe thinking about him using an AK or SKS.

    I don’t think I have seen that video. LOL I’ve kind of moved on from this realizing there’s going to be the official story, then 1000 theories, then the actual truth that will probably be somewhere in between. 🙂

  • Perhaps the world needs to give up on the why.
    Perhaps the most obvious is the true reality.
    The guy was just bat crap evil/insane/drug whacked (take your pick).

    Hard for anyone sane to wrap their mind around … so the assumption there must be something more?

    Why should or would there be a need for a cover-up?

    • Why should or would there be a need for a cover-up?

      When government jobs are on the line, cover-ups happen spontaneously. The most obvious reasons would be that government was involved in some way with Paddock’s mission, whatever it actually was. Or, they at least knew (or should have known) about it, and failed in some way to thwart it. Think Benghazi, OKC bombing, 911, Waco, JFK assassination, or any of hundreds of other times they demonstrably lied to us, to hide their failings.

      As for why the obsession with trying to make sense of it, I was particularly taken with a Drudge link:

      Police detectives and criminal profilers are working overtime to dissect Paddock’s behavior, circumstances and psychological state in the lead-up to the shootings. Mental health professionals and experts on human behavior, meanwhile, are bearing witness to a more common and less mysterious response on the part of Americans: a sense that without an explanation for Paddock’s actions, we cannot psychologically close the chapter on this shooting.

      “The lack of explanation here is bothering us on an almost existential level,” said psychologist Yuval Neria, an expert on post-traumatic stress disorder at Columbia University in New York. It’s an anguish Neria says he has heard in his lab and in his clinical practice from people who have followed the unfolding horrors from afar and from those with direct ties to the shooting.

      “It is an unconscious and profound human trait to seek a motive for catastrophic violence. It is a means of self-defense,” said Jeff Victoroff, a professor of psychiatry and neurology at the University of Southern California and an expert in trauma, terrorism and human aggression. “People need to make contingency plans, to protect themselves, by assigning a motive, recognizing people with that motive, and staying away from them.”

      In case anyone reads the entire article, allow me to strongly disavow the last part of it, where the author unfortunately gets into obligatory Trump bashing and promoting gun control. 😉 â—„Daveâ–º

      • Chris says:

        Indeed there is that particular need to find motive. Without recognizing it we feel powerless to even try to prevent it in the future. Then again maybe it just can’t be prevented. Coming to grips with that would be the hardest challenge. People have always done evil things and always will. It may be getting worse with a lessening social decency and general respect for life and the rights of others. Crazies gonna crazy.

      • Think Benghazi, OKC bombing, 911, Waco, JFK assassination, or any of hundreds of other times they demonstrably lied to us, to hide their failings.

        Do you honestly think the government would be behind a gun down of innocent concert goers? For what reason?

        I could buy covering up incompetence in handling of the case. Seems to me this is far different than the instances you mention Dave.

        This appears more like a psychotic break to me.

        BTW … who is to say this guy was not shooting 2 AR’s at one time? I have more than one kind of shells for my AR. (My guess that applying this guys timing logic on those shells … they would be different) Clearly this guy did not have to aim or worry about hitting an exact target.

        Time the world face it … there is no protection from this kind of situation. Never has been nor ever will there be.

        The moral of the story is … the guy was nuts.
        Why he was nuts does not matter.
        Clearly on a day to day basis he did not appear to be nuts enough to call attention to his behavior.

        How he dragged an arsenal of weapons into the Mandalay Bay … NOW THAT IS A PROBLEM.

        • Do you honestly think the government would be behind a gun down of innocent concert goers? For what reason?

          Good god, yes, CT! Citizens are expendable. What would stop a Hillary or Obama from ordering it, if they thought it would insure their next election? Their conscience? How about Maxine Waters? Do you imagine that America’s politicians are somehow less dangerous to the public than those in communist countries? Allow them to disarm us, then hide and watch what happens to dissidents…

          Half the country, and most government employees, think Trump is Hitler and we redneck Country music fans, are all his deplorable racist supporters. Way too many Leftists are cheering this event. Remember Kent State? Bull Conner? Ruby Ridge? Waco? Innumerable SWAT team ‘mistakes’ over the years? Innocent civilians losing their lives at the hands of government agents is a pretty regular occurrence in America, just as it is in most tyrannies around the world. Why do you think DHS is stockpiling so much ammunition? What do you think will be going on in all the FEMA camps, after the next revolution/civil war (same thing) starts, probably in the not too distant future?

          Have we already forgotten Fast & Furious? FDR knew Pearl Harbor was coming, yet allowed it to happen for political reasons. How difficult is it to conjecture that the same was true of 9/11? As for reasons, who knows; but it is easier to imagine some for government functionaries, than for Paddock. BTW: none of my examples here or above, need to entail deliberate slaughter of innocents, only collateral damage from government activities gone awry, which then required cover-up. More to follow… â—„Daveâ–º

  • Do I think the left could/would do such a thing?
    If that were the case they would already be busted.

    Under Trump?
    Sorry not so much. If he caught wind he is too volatile and would blab it to the world.

    The progressive fools apparently are not aware they would be vulture fodder in a nano second if they really set a match to the powder keg. Need you be reminded they are basically loud mouth cowards?

    I have long said had Watts started in the central valley it would have been ended in less than an hour. WITHOUT THE DESTRUCTION AND CARNAGE! No doubt in my mind with your background you can relate.

    I could go on but baking triple berry scones is on my to-do list and “what if” conspiracy theory appears to be a pointless waste of time on this deal … LOL

    • Chris says:

      I could go on but baking triple berry scones is on my to-do list

      Does my heart good to see someone with their priorities in good order. Passing you a cup of fresh brewed Death Wish coffee. Please pass the scones.

    • If that were the case they would already be busted.

      By whom? They own the deep state, and mercilessly demonize anyone daring to challenge their authority.

      Under Trump?
      Sorry not so much.

      I refuse to believe you are that naive, CT. Trump is only a minor thorn in the side of the deep state, and he damn sure doesn’t control it. They have their own agenda, and will do everything in their considerable power to thwart his attempts to dethrone them. They have been entrenched for decades, and will still be there long after Trump is gone.

      No doubt in my mind with your background you can relate.

      I once would have wholeheartedly agreed. However, demographically, a lot has changed since I was toting a Sanger PD badge thereabouts, back in the ’70s. The rugged individualists of our youth are now old, feeble, or dead. They have been steadily replaced with Mexican peasants, and Marxist snowflakes. The modern police forces now see their job more as protecting the hooligans and gangs from the wrath of vigilantes, than the other way round.

      OK, I get it. The few still participating here believe that the authorities are truthful and correct, in pronouncing Paddock a lone wolf psychopath. Speculation otherwise, is viewed as trafficking in unwelcome conspiracy theories. I will cease, desist, and try to find a better subject. At least this one was actually newsworthy. Forgive me, if the nonsense that the political media are constantly going on about, bores me to tears… 😉 â—„Daveâ–º

      • Trump is only a minor thorn in the side of the deep state, and he damn sure doesn’t control it.

        It appears Trump is more than a minor thorn and daily gets to be bigger and bigger. Clearly he does not control the deep state but neither do they any longer.

        All of that being said I still see no benefit to what went on in this incident for the deep state.

        Call it crazy lone wolf Paddock or a “deep state” group. THEY FAILED unless simply killing people was the sole motivation.

        Perhaps I am missing something here Dave. What deep state reason do you see for any of this?

        If indeed it was the deep state … I must admit they are the most incompetent group of lunatics I have seen in a long time. 😉

        • I brought the deep state into this discussion, when you admitted that you considered Leftists capable of mass murder, if it suited their ambitions; but suggested that having Trump as POTUS would deter them. I couldn’t disagree more. People tend to invest the office of POTUS with magical powers it just doesn’t have. Besides, for a guy famous for firing incompetent subordinates, he now seems to be experiencing a remarkable inability to control his own staff, much less obscure Leftist bureaucrats he doesn’t even know exist.

          I think of the deep state as the entrenched bureaucracy, particularly among the various propaganda, intelligence, and enforcement departments of the Federal government, who make and enforce the rules, regardless of who the currently elected officials are. The movers, shakers, and enablers among them tend to be elitist one-world globalists, for whom the Left vs Right Kabuki dance of the Incumbrepublocrat party, is just tactical theater. It makes little difference to them whether a Bush or a Clinton is elected as POTUS, as long as they support the UN and keep signing the various NAFTA, WTO, and AGW type global agreements, which chip away at the sovereignty of America. The most important thing is to keep the sheeple stirred up, and of the frightful opinion that this madcap world has serious unsolvable dangers, which only vigorous central government can alleviate or control.

          That said, I haven’t a clue what their motive might have been to set up this tragedy; but I am 99% convinced that they are lying to us about what they know. Why? If this was truly a lone wolf operation by a psychopath, who is now dead, there is no excuse for withholding any evidence whatever from an understandably concerned public demanding answers. The standard line about shielding evidence to insure proper justice in future court proceedings, just doesn’t apply. They are protecting something or someone else.

          As I have suggested earlier, the actual carnage need not have been on their agenda, for them to have been involved in some way with these weapons ending up in that hotel room, and desperately needing to conceal that fact. Remember, nearly all the so-called thwarted Jihadist plots in America since 9/11, have involved FBI undercover agents supplying guns, explosives, etc. to the terrorists, before arresting them for possessing and intending to use them. Paddock could have easily been a patsy in a gun running scheme that went awry. The buyer(s) could have shot him, if the FBI didn’t. Has anyone else noticed how much Campos’ neck beard makes him look like a Jihadist? Has anyone checked into his religion? What about that early report that he was saturated in powder residue? One need not enjoy conspiracy theories, to find the ever-changing stories about this mysterious character incredulous.

          We couldn’t possibly know if they failed in a mission, until we figure out what it was. Was Fast & Furious a failure, or a success? Were all the lesser mass shootings that inexplicably happened before gun control debates over the years, successes or failures? Did they perhaps add up over time into legislative successes? Who knows? I don’t; but that is no reason not to be suspicious and skeptical of agendas I don’t comprehend. As Steel concluded in a comment to the other thread a week ago:

          If this is a government coverup, there are things they can easily lie about to throw us off. There are other things that would be really hard to cover up on short notice, surrounded by cameras and witnesses. It’s sad, but the world makes more sense when I distrust what our officials tell us.

          May I suggest that you reread his whole comment. He suggests many possibilities, which I note have yet to be crossed off such a list, by the overly secretive authorities. Why? â—„Daveâ–º

  • Chris says:

    The few still participating here believe that the authorities are truthful and correct, in pronouncing Paddock a lone wolf psychopath.

    I have said nothing of the sort. This whole thing stinks. Up until now the subject video is a theory. The natural progression of any theory is to try and poke holes in it. If you can try and it still holds water then it’s no longer just a theory. That’s all I was doing. Testing the theory. We have to do that otherwise we’ll wind up believing anything. I still don’t maintain he’s absolutely wrong. I just can’t be sure he’s absolutely right.

    I take youtube videos by unknowns with a grain of salt. The financial benefit to say anything to go viral is strong. The more believable it is the more shares it will get.

    • Well said, Chris. My interest wasn’t so much the potential merit of his theory, as the impetus to dig deeper, watch more YouTube videos, and pay close attention to the sounds. I found one that was a continuous 15 minute recording, containing the entire episode:

      I was truly surprised at how much time the shooter spent firing single shots, presumably aiming them. There were only ten full auto bursts, with only one every minute or so. Slowing down the sound to half speed, some sure sounded like belt fed weapons, continuously firing about 100 rounds without interruption, in just under 10 seconds. If they were clip fed AR-15s, they had to have been using 100 round drums, because there was not even an interruption for time to change weapons, much less change clips. From the pictures I have seen of the crime scene, that does not compute. Of course, very little does compute… â—„Daveâ–º

  • You know I’m with you, â—„Daveâ–º. There is so much more here than they are telling us. We can all just go back to munching grass and ignore the sounds of the slaughter house, and maybe we’d be happier, but I think conspiracy theories serve some real purpose.

    I live in a world where things happen for a reason. Not some metaphysical or theological reason, but actual cause and effect. Even if he was crazy, he was crazy for a reason; bad genetics, poor upbringing, beta male syndrome, pharmaceuticals, brainwashing, etc. It’s important that these reasons be known.

    When officials hide information on major mysterious events, it fuels conspiracy theory. If they would like us to stop digging and spreading alarming possibilities, they’re welcome to release evidence of a more plausible scenario.

    As for how any of this benefits the deep state, look no deeper than Fast and Furious. They did that. In what way does this fail to look like the exact same M.O. for a botched operation?

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